December 15, 1979
Page 36323
Mr. MUSKIE. Mr. President, will the Senator yield?
Mr. McCLURE. I am happy to yield to the Senator from Maine, without losing my right to the floor.
Mr. MUSKIE. I understand about that. When we spend tens of billions of dollars on educational grants, they are going to pay off. They are going to increase skills and income-earning capabilities. But not in the year in which the investment is made. You still have to have a budget, to determine how much you can afford to invest in a given year.
With respect to the proceeds of these figures, I do not argue that they are that precise. We are talking about projections extending through the next decade.
The revenue projections for 10 years are not precise. They are of orders of magnitude, and based on projections. The only thing I actually know I will spend tomorrow is the amount of gas I will use to go to church. I can estimate the cost of my automobile over the next year, but not with precision.
I think it is not fair to force those Senators who are interested in the development of coal to meet the test of a roll call vote challenge, because they have a $1.1 billion amendment over the next 4 years, and close my eyes to a $112 million item of the same character because it is not as big. It seems to me I am being unfair if I subject one of those two amendments to the test, and not the other.
So I am troubled by this accumulation of relatively smaller amounts that tend to serve the same purpose. Coal is fully as valuable as biomass and tight sand gas and all the rest; we are interested in all of them. But I cannot concur in the cumulative addition of these amounts which are basically small, but cumulatively amount to a great deal.
So it seems to me we ought to have a roll call vote on this amendment. I am not sure how that fits into the plans or fits into the understandings that have been given to Senators. I would hope that perhaps we could put this amendment over for a vote on Monday, and let everybody have a chance to think about it, unless it is the leadership's intention to have further roll call votes, still, tonight.
Mr. McCLURE, Mr. President, I wonder if the Senator from Maine could indicate if he is going to demand a roll call vote on my amendment.
Mr. MUSKIE. Mr. President, I think I should.
Mr. McCLURE. Mr. President, I wonder why a roll call on mine, and yet not the Senator from Ohio, who just offered one
Mr. MUSKIE. I think there should be one on that. I think there should be one on every
amendment. That is the only way I can be fair.
Mr. McCLURE. You see, Mr. President, I understand the concerns of the Senator from Maine, but I think this amendment is certainly no more objectionable than others we have talked about. I have discussed it with the managers of the bill on both sides, while I have cut the amendment back twice, in two different ways, in order to reduce the amount and the limit so that Congress and the committees of Congress could take a look at it in a shorter period of time, to see whether the revenue estimates were right, to see whether the effects predicted were good or bad effects in terms of what they would do for energy production and in terms of what they would do to the budget; and I think I have accommodated the concerns expressed by the majority floor manager of the bill and the minority floor manager of the bill, and I would hope the Senator from Maine might not object to my amendment, as he did not on that of the Senator from Ohio and that of the Senator from Montana, and then we could complete the business tonight as we would on Monday.
Mr. MUSKIE. First of all, the amendment of the Senator from Montana was corrected to avoid the impact on the budget. Your amendment is to the Glenn amendment?
Mr. McCLURE. My amendment is an amendment in the second degree to the Glenn amendment.
Mr. MUSKIE. Let me apologize to the Senator from Idaho. I was puzzled as to how to deal with amendments like the Glenn amendment. Thirty-two million dollars over 10 years; I was thinking, let us not subject every amendment to a roll call, let us have a de minimis test. Then we have one offer of $112 million, then somebody comes in with $150 million, then we come in with one for $1.1 billion, that we had quite a row about earlier this afternoon.
So I decided I was wrong about that, that the $32 million amendment or the $112 million amendment ought to be subjected to the same kind of scrutiny as the $1.1 billion. I hesitate to reach that conclusion, because it could mean we are going to have an awful lot of roll call votes about relatively small amounts of money, but I do not know how else to be fair.
Mr. McCLURE. Mr. President, I would hope that the Senator from Maine would withhold that, and allow us to dispose of an amendment like the Baucus amendment and the Glenn amendment. I understand and I share his concern.
Mr. MUSKIE. May I ask the Senator this—
Mr. McCLURE. I yield to the Senator for a question without losing my right to the floor.
Mr. MUSKIE. I would like to see what we are going to be faced with in the way of a problem. If I agree to $32 million amendments without knowing what else is coming, there could be 20 or 30 or 40 of them, and I could be stuck with a self-imposed test, such that we would be stuck with a lot of additional tax credits, and dissipate the revenues we have worked so hard to put into this bill. If the Senator could withhold his amendment until Monday, perhaps we could get a better fix.
Mr. JACKSON. Mr. President, will the Senator yield at this point?
Mr. McCLURE. I am happy to yield to the Senator from Washington without losing my right to the floor.
Mr. President, I hope that the pending matter would be put over until Monday morning.
Mr. LONG addressed the Chair.
Mr. JACKSON. I am not suggesting something contrary to what the leadership has in mind. But I suspect that this will go on for quite sometime, unless we can put it over until Monday and have a chance to reflect on it a little more.
Mr. ROBERT C. BYRD. Mr. President, will the Senator yield?
I would ask the Senator from Idaho to withdraw the amendment at this point and agree that the McClure amendment will be the first thing on Monday. We will dispose of the Baucus amendment now and dispose of the McClure amendment on Monday.
Mr. McCLURE. That is agreeable with me. I would ask unanimous consent that it might be done in that manner.