April 24, 1978
Page 11163
Mr. HARRY F. BYRD, JR. Mr. President, I just want to address a question or two.
The PRESIDING OFFICER. Who yields time to the Senator?
Mr. BELLMON. How much time does the Senator from Virginia require?
Mr. HARRY F. BYRD, JR. I just wanted to ask a few questions. I do not think it will take long.
Mr. BELLMON. Ten minutes?
Mr. HARRY F. BYRD, JR. Let us say 10 minutes.
Mr. BELLMON. I am happy to yield the Senator 10 minutes.
Mr. HARRY F. BYRD, JR. I thought I might address this question to either the manager or the ranking minority member.
Page 2 of the resolution says:
The amount by which the statutory limit of such debt should accordingly be increased
$101.800 billion.
Is the Senator from Virginia correct in assuming from that the Federal funds deficit would be $101.8 billion?
Mr. MUSKIE. The $101.8 billion includes the Federal fund deficit.
Mr. HARRY F. BYRD, JR. The resolution says that the amount of the deficit in the budget which is appropriate in the light of economic conditions and all relevant factors is $55.6 billion.
Of course, that means the unified budget, the total budget.
Mr. MUSKIE. The Senator is correct.
Mr. HARRY F. BYRD, JR. The next item says that the appropriate level of the public debt is $853.8 billion, and the amount by which the statutory limit on such debt should be accordingly increased is $101.8 billion.
Now, I would assume, although I may be in error, that that must be the anticipated Federal funds debt.
Mr. MUSKIE. The Federal funds deficit is included in those figures.
Mr. HARRY F. BYRD, JR. Pardon?
Mr. MUSKIE. Those figures include borrowing by off-budget agencies as well as, of course, the on-budget borrowing.
Mr. HARRY F. BYRD, JR. Yes.
Mr. MUSKIE. I do not know if I have it with me. But that is the answer to the question. I can get the detail of it.
Mr. HARRY F. BYRD, JR. I would appreciate that. I am taking it from memory. My recollection is that the Federal funds deficit, leaving out the off-budget items, would be about $74 billion, and the off-budget items then must be somewhere around $26 billion.
Would that be correct?
Mr. BELLMON. Will the Senator from Virginia yield?
Mr. HARRY F. BYRD, JR. Yes, I yield.
Mr. BELLMON. That figure the Senator pointed out would seem to be disproportionate. But the fact is the total amount of borrowing has to be adequate to cover the particular debt at its highest point. It may be the debt will reach a higher level sometime during the fiscal year and then comes down, so at the end of the year it is only $55.6 billion. But in order to cover those fluctuations, it is necessary to raise the debt limit to the figure of $101.8 billion.
Mr. MUSKIE. The detail I have in front of me now. The existing debt ceiling is $752 billion through July 1 of this Year.
Mr. HARRY F. BYRD, JR. Yes.
Mr. MUSKIE. Now, in order to anticipate what it would be at. the beginning of fiscal year 1979, we have to estimate what the debt will be at the end of the current fiscal year, that is, September 30.
Mr. HARRY F. BYRD, JR. That is right.
Mr. MUSKIE. And as of that date, it is estimated it will be $769.2.
In other words, there would have to be an increase in the debt ceiling for the current fiscal year from $752 to $769.2 to cover the remainder of this fiscal year.
Then to that we add the estimated fiscal year 1979 deficit of $55.6.
Mr. HARRY F. BYRD, JR. No, not $55.6. That is the Federal — I mean —
Mr. MUSKIE. I am giving the Senator the details.
Mr. HARRY F. BYRD, JR. I beg pardon.
Mr. MUSKIE. We will get to it. I will give the items.
Mr. HARRY F. BYRD, JR. That is fine.
Mr. MUSKIE. We add $55.6. The deficit of the off-budget agencies is estimated at $12.5, and then to that is added the surplus of trust funds which is $16.5. Because they hold Government securities, they are counted in as part of the debt.
If we add those four items, we arrive at the figure of $853.8 billion.
Going over those again, $769.2 billion at the end of this fiscal year. $55.6 billion is the estimated deficit for 1979, $12.5 billion, the off-budget agencies, and $16.5 billion, the surplus of trust funds.
That adds up to $853.3 billion.
Mr. HARRY F. BYRD, JR. Let me state it this way and see if I am accurate in so stating: As we all know, of course, the debt is affected primarily and almost entirely by the Federal funds deficit rather than by the unified deficit.
Does the Senator have the Federal funds estimate? The Senator from Virginia has a figure of $74 billion as the Federal funds deficit. To that is added the off-budget borrowing. Was it 16.5 or 12.5?
Mr. MUSKIE. 12.5.
Mr. HARRY F. BYRD, JR. That is $86.5 billion. What is the 16.5 the Senator gave me a moment ago?
Mr. MUSKIE. The 16.5 is the surplus of the trust funds.
Another item that the Senator may not have included is this — and I do not know how that fits his method of computing it: The anticipated debt at the end of this fiscal year would be $769.2 billion, which is $17.2 billion above the existing debt ceiling.
Mr. HARRY F. BYRD, JR. The figure I have for the deficit for fiscal 1978, the current year, is $64.8 billion. But the Senator says it will be how much for the current. fiscal year?
Mr. MUSKIE. The deficit for fiscal 1978 is $56.3 billion.
Mr. HARRY F. BYRD, JR. That is the unified deficit.
Mr. MUSKIE. That is the unified deficit.
Mr. HARRY F. BYRD, JR. The Federal funds deficit is what — that is, general operations of Government, leaving out the trust funds?
Mr. MUSKIE. I am afraid I do not have that figure as such.
Mr. HARRY F. BYRD, JR. All right. In any case, the debt limit in this 1 year needs to be increased by $101.8 billion.
Mr. MUSKIE. Part of that is the fiscal 1978 increase. Take $17.2 from that number, and that shows the increase, reflecting the off-budget agencies, the on-budget agencies; the increase in the surplus of trust funds.
Mr. HARRY F. BYRD, JR. That is right. Let me state it this way, and see if it is about right: Included in this $101.8 billion is the deficit which will be incurred for the period July 1 through September 30.
Mr. MUSKIE. Yes.
Mr. HARRY F. BYRD, JR. And from October 1 through the following fiscal year — in other words, 15 months. This $101.8 billion is a 15-month figure, not a 12-month figure.
Mr. MUSKIE. The Senator is correct. That states it more simply.
Mr. HARRY F. BYRD, JR. I thank the Senator. That is the point on which I was not clear. I am glad to have that cleared up.
The PRESIDING OFFICER. The 10 minutes of the Senator have expired.
Mr. HARRY F. BYRD, JR. Mr. President, will the Senator yield me additional time?
Mr. MUSKIE. I yield the Senator 5 additional minutes.
Mr. HARRY F. BYRD, JR. I thank the Senator.
The figure I have for the interest on the debt — I am speaking now of the upcoming fiscal year — is $55.9 billion. On page 4, the figure for new budget authority is $46.8 billion. Is that for fiscal1979?
Mr. MUSKIE. That is for fiscal 1979.
Mr. HARRY F. BYRD, JR. That figure is a great deal lower, if I am correct about it, than the budget estimate. I am wondering why it would be that much lower. It is exactly $9 billion less.
Mr. MUSKIE. Is the Senator looking at the budget report? If he looks at page 160 of the budget report, there are two tables that are relevant. The one at the top indicates "Mission 1: INTEREST ON THE PUBLIC DEBT," $53.2 billion. The table at the bottom indicates "Mission 2: OTHER INTEREST," which is minus $6.4 billion. If the Senator will make the subtraction, he will get $46.8 billion as the net.
Mr. HARRY F. BYRD, JR. I suppose that, really, my question to the Senator is, which is the appropriate figure to use? It occurs to me that the interest on the debt — in other words, what it costs to service the debt — is a great deal higher than the figure included in the budget resolution. The reason it is higher is that there is offsetting interest which the Government receives. As I understand it, the Budget Committee has reduced the total interest charges by the amount of the offsetting interest. Is that correct?
Mr. MUSKIE. No. We have given the functional total, which is accurate. In the report, it gives the information on the makeup of the functional total, and the interest on the public debt is clearly stated on page 160, at $53.2 billion.
Mr. HARRY F. BYRD, JR. Then, what is the $6 billion on the table below?
Mr. MUSKIE. Other interest payments and interest collections by the Federal Government. Collections exceed payments, and so there is a net inflow of $6 billion.
Mr. HARRY F. BYRD, JR. That is right. That is what I mentioned, I think, a moment ago.
Mr. MUSKIE. Yes.
Mr. HARRY F. BYRD, JR. The Senator has offset the cost of financing or servicing the debt.
Mr. MUSKIE. Both of these items are included in that function, and I do not know of any way to avoid the arithmetic of subtracting the interest received from the interest paid in order to get the functional total. I don't see a problem so long as the functional total is clearly described in the committee report, which I think it is.
In other words, interest paid is not a separate function from interest collected ; and this is not the only place where we offset expenditures, say, by income of one kind or another received. For example, we receive revenues from oil leases in the Outer Continental Shelf, and that is subtracted in function 950, undistributed offsetting receipts.
The PRESIDING OFFICER. The time of the Senator has expired.
Mr. MUSKIE. I yield another 5 minutes.
Mr. HARRY F. BYRD, JR. I am not critical, I might say to the Senator. I just wish to understand the procedure used.
Mr. MUSKIE. I understand.
Mr. HARRY F. BYRD, JR. I do not doubt, and I do not say that the Budget Committee is not using the appropriate procedure. But I do say this, that the cost of servicing the debt is not $46.8 billion.
Mr. MUSKIE. It is $53.2 billion.
Mr.. HARRY F. BYRD, JR. It is $53.2 billion. That is the cost of servicing the debt.
Mr. MUSKIE. The Senator is correct.
Mr. HARRY F. BYRD, JR. As a result of the deficits and as a result of the total debt the taxpayers are billed for that much.
Mr. MUSKIE. The Senator is correct.
Mr. HARRY F. BYRD, JR. There is an offset that is the interest which the Government receives in other areas.
Mr. MUSKIE. That is correct.
Mr. HARRY F. BYRD, JR. But so far as servicing the debt is concerned, it is greater than the $46.8 billion.
Mr. MUSKIE. That is clearly correct, yes.
Mr. HARRY F. BYRD, JR. I thank the Senator.
The PRESIDING OFFICER. Who yields time?
Mr. MUSKIE. Does the Senator wish more time for any purpose?
Mr. HARRY F. BYRD, JR. Not at the moment.
Mr. MUSKIE. Mr. President, I suggest the absence of a quorum.